Proposition 22

"Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo" (rustyvandura)
10/09/2020 at 09:57 • Filed to: None

Anybody have an opinion they'd like to share on Prop 22? That's the California proposition that would allow lift and Uber and DoorDash and the like to continue paying drivers as gig workers and not have to treat them as employees.

DISCUSSION (37)

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 10:08

When I lived in a real state, the Voter Information Guide was a leaflet of maybe FOUR pages.

Last election here in The Golden Shower State, the “guide” was over 100 pages, with each “has a pork barrel to roast” partisan side filling it with massively distorted “facts” about every, single proposition . Citizen Democracy is a facade out there. Nobody knows what the real impact of any of these measures will be over the long-run. Not even the people writing them. See: Prop 13, the wildly-popular measure that’s effectively destroyed the state.

Darkbrador > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 10:13

This stands s omewhere between c apitalism taking one step to far and the normalization of evil.

The Snowman > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 10:13

Gig economy workers should be employees after working a threshold of hours . Taxi drivers we re employees before Uber/lyft started paying people less and skirting regulations.

Highlander-Datsuns are Forever > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 10:21

This is a strange issue because I can see both sides of the story. One one had you have Uber who has done nothing but create an app and license it’s name to thousands of people to work as really cheap taxi drivers with their own cars. On the other hand you have people who actually think this business model should work for them and be a good living. It’s kind of like signing up for an adjustable rate mortgage when your initial payments are barely affordable and then complaining when the rates go up and filling for bankruptcy because you didn’t realize the full implications of the contract.

I think with the way Uber and Lyft have evolved over the last few years they have absolutely become a taxi service and should be treated as such. I’m sure there are thousands of uber drivers out there that only do a few hundred dollars of rides a week or month, that is how this is intended to work, as a side hustle or for a retired board grandpa. Those that are trying to make this work full time are really deceiving themselves.

Should this be handled through legislation ? I don’t really know but leave it to California to come up with the most fucked up way to legislate something. Why doesn’t the state and municipalities that they operate in just say: Hey you are a taxi, show me your license and insurance for taxi service? A few months of $1,000 tickets and you know shit would change quickly.

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Darkbrador
10/09/2020 at 10:28

The core problem is “the VCs all made billions on these companies that aren’t really businesses”.

UBER and LYFT exist to sell $20 taxi rides for $7. And the VC and investment banking community have managed to push the risk from that crappy business proposition out into the public markets.

It it ain’t a viable business? No way should the government be giving it a free pass on their tax and employment obligations.

nermal > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 10:47

Cost get passed on to the end user, and then supply & demand concepts take over from there . So, if the drivers need to be “employees” and not “freelancers”, a $12 ride will become $20. Less people will ride due to higher costs. Things may or may not reach a balance point that is profitable after that.

Has this hit other freelancers yet? Places like Fiverr and Upwork?

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > The Snowman
10/09/2020 at 11:01

Uber is a very bad deal for drivers. I don’t know why they do it.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
10/09/2020 at 11:06

I don’t really know but leave it to California to come up with the most fucked up way to legislate something.

Look at what Wayz has done to Los Angeles? Or those bikes or scooters that litter sidewalks. A Big Tech idea with huge social implications.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > nermal
10/09/2020 at 11:13

I’ve ridden Uber/Lyft, maybe a dozen times. It gives me a mild case of the creeps, not unlike Air BnB, which gives me a serious case of the creeps.

It’s a [not entirely] ridiculous comparison to make, I think, between taxis and the airlines. Why aren’t private airplane owners flying people around on the cheap? There’s a line drawn somewhere that makes this impossible, though there are FAA regulations that allow a pilot to share the cost of a ride with a passenger in some situations.

Which is not to say that if you have licensed taxis and taxi drivers, you’ll have anything like competent or professional drivers.

I’m rambling, but I really don’t know how to vote on this one. I can see Uber and the like being a good side hustle, but at some point, it’s not a gig any more and it’s employment.

MrSnrub > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 11:14

Contract employment like this is an insidious concept to me, so I support any attempt to push back against it. If these companies can’t afford to properly employ the people who make all their money then they don’t deserve to exist

SBA Thanks You For All The Fish > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 11:17

“When VCs break all the rules...”

Pre-COVID traffic in LA was skyrocketing due to all the “ride-share” companies flooding the streets with under-paid drivers. Not to mention all the increased congestion at LAX from drivers praying they’d pick up some rides. The ride-share guys finally got banished into the Neverworld beyond Terminal One, but it’s a mess. It’s all a mess.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MrSnrub
10/09/2020 at 11:20

What’s your line of work, may I ask?

I can readily line up behind you as you’ve stated this. My thinking tends toward thinking that it’s a legitimate side hustle, but at some threshold it becomes employment and should be considered as such and regulated as such. Since Prop 22 is written by Uber and their ilk, I will probably vote against it.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > SBA Thanks You For All The Fish
10/09/2020 at 11:23

The mess created by Wayz is a different mess. It turns little neighborhood streets into thoroughfares and renders them impassable, for the sake of saving drivers a few seconds. And it’s run by “editors” who are in a weird pyramid like a massive online game. Very strange, and very miserable for residents of neighborhoods.

nermal > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 11:28

From purely anecdotal evidence, I’ve been in a full spectrum of Ubers and taxis, from quite nice to extremely sketchy. I’d imagine that AirBnb vs hotels is the same.

The reason there aren’t UberPlanes is because private plane ownership is much, much different than private auto. The barriers to entry from a cost and commitment perspective are wayyyyy higher . Business and celebrity types that can afford a private plane will hire one out without much regard to cost . Regular jagoffs will continue to take an airline, because the cost of paying a private pilot to fly you around will be much, much higher.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > nermal
10/09/2020 at 11:31

I get that, but in theory at least, a legitimate taxi company would have to meet some standards that the gig drivers would not, though granted, the Uber picking you up is probably going to be a much newer, much nicer car than the clapped-out Crown Vic the taxi company is running.

barnie > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 11:39

Applies to boats, too. Private owners can take up to capacity for free. But, if passengers are paying, captain must have a master’s card. A ‘6-pack” is the lowest of the se for 6 passengers. Folks helping with the groceries for a cruise is actually a grey area.

MrSnrub > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 11:42

I work in IT - big surprise there, right? But I think contracting is a threat to just about every profession long-term as profits become increasingly hard to come by. This is an opportunity to cut off the gig economy at the pass.

Also, my understanding of the Uber/Lyft business model is that they’re really betting on autonomous tech to become viable long-term, because at that point they won’t have to pay any drivers. Until then, oceans of venture capital subsidize their below-market pricing, which is driving traditional taxi business out of the market. Once they’ve destroyed the competition, they’ll be free to raise prices as they see fit and either replace their drivers en masse with robot cars or, more likely, continue to string drivers along on starvation wages as full autonomous driving remains stubbornly out of reach.

It’s classic monopoly behavior, but our government hasn’t really been interested in fighting that kind of thing for decades. In the absence of actual antitrust enforcement this is at least some kind of alternative to protect the interests of both consumers and workers.

subexpression > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 12:30

I’m in “don’t care” territory since I’m not in CA and firmly opposed to moving there , but I thought those very services were the main targets of the original law so making an exception for them seems a little weird to me .

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MrSnrub
10/09/2020 at 13:23

You’ve really helped me to solidify my thinking on this. Also, your comment the other day about Wisconsin not being Minnesota was one of the hands-down best replies I’ve ever read in this space. Package deal, it was, content, irony, recipient ... Simply the finest.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > barnie
10/09/2020 at 13:25

Grey area: I think we’re talking about the spirit of the law here and unless I’m buying you groceries and you happen to be taking me and six other people to work every day, and eating a lot of groceries, grey may be okay.

MrSnrub > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 15:26

Ha, thanks, I appreciate it! He really didn’t even merit a response, but sometimes the low-hanging fruit is so low you may as well take it...

JeffCronin > Highlander-Datsuns are Forever
10/09/2020 at 15:52

Chiming in,

25+ years ago when I drove a Cab in Denver the arrangement was for me to operate under a business license obtained at the county. This license had some restrictions, including a bunch of rules around who I could refuse to pick up and under what conditions . Most importantly, the fare structure was regulated, if you wonder why most cabs are so crappy it is this piece alone that drives it.

Cab drivers would then pay the cab company a flat fee for dispatching, and we would keep all fares ourselves.

I was out of that business long before Uber, but as a frequent business traveler I can tell you after talking this through with a BUNCH of drivers that many of them drive as a source of income for long porti ons of each day. There are two issues there; firstly the pay they get is about what I would take home over 25 years ago (~$300 per day depending on location), secondly there are no protections or regulations to speak of on the ride from either their side or the rider.

I have to say that the idea of being able to pick up a ride once in a while without committing to a 6 or 12 hour dispatch window would have been really attractive. Being able to reject riders on sight would have been even more attractive, but most of the exciting and scary driving stories would be missed that way.

The real point here though is that overall earnings were controlled in the old system by limiting licensure, making the job of driving a cab something that could pay a good wage for a family. Uber and Lyft have leveraged that out of existence and managed to do so while moving regulations out of the business of driving people .

I still personally prefer an Uber/Lyft over a cab now, but honestly feel a little bad about it every time.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MrSnrub
10/09/2020 at 16:14

That one community member I find interesting. They seem to want to jab, but the jabs almost always miss and they crumple like a soda can with any sort of thoughtful rejoinder. I found them annoying at one time, but now I’m sort of going with harmless, if that makes any sense. Some who have left us were downright mean, and others combative, but this one... I guess by harmless , I mean that they are not un excellent, if that makes any sense. (You know, be excellent... ) And they are eager to be active in the community. And that reply of yours covered all of that in the spirit of excellence . It was absolutely perfect and it’s why I love Oppo so much: a bunch of really good people putting forth their best selves.

MrSnrub > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/09/2020 at 17:37

I think he’s just a guy who has reactionary beliefs due to his wealth, and doesn’t invest too much effort into political discussions here apart from the occas ional barb . Certainly not as bad as some other folks (like our recently-banished Democrat-hating lawyer from Fresno for example)

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MrSnrub
10/09/2020 at 19:34

Funny you’d mention that guy. Personally, I think he’s a bit unhinged. The difference since his departure has been palpable. I think your analysis on the other point is spot on. Where are you located? I am San Francisco Bay Area.

Stef Schrader > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/10/2020 at 01:19

Yeeeeah...I’m not even in your state, but after the temper tantrum those companies threw in Austin, I sure as hell would n’t trust them writing their own rules. I still avoid using them as much as possible on principle for the sheer amount of garbage I got in the mail and number of phone calls I got here.

MrSnrub > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/10/2020 at 02:22

I’m in Austin, so not able to vote on this, but I was witness to the tantrum Stef mentioned. Definitely left a bad impression on me, though I already wasn’t impressed with their corporate behavior

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Stef Schrader
10/10/2020 at 07:41

I don't find myself having overly much sympathy for the drivers, cuz I think it's a dumb gig that tears up your car and people who are doing it really don't love their cars. Okay end of judgments. But I do strongly feel that a few tech entities are making all this money on the backs of gig drivers who are paid peanuts. So my theory is whichever vote yes or no on this proposition does more to poke Uber in the eye, that's the way I would feel inclined to vote.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > MrSnrub
10/10/2020 at 07:44

I don’t know if you were aware, but Ttyym mnn and I are brothers and periodically, before the epidemic, I would travel to Austin to visit him and his boys. But as I replied to Stef in a reply above, regarding prop 22, I would feel inclined to vote in the manner that did the most to poke Uber in the eye.

MrSnrub > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/10/2020 at 12:23

I don’t know if you were aware, but Ttyymmnn and I are brothers and periodically, before the epidemic, I would travel to Austin to visit him and his boys.

Oh wow, no I didn’t know that. A literal Oppo family!

I would definitely vote no on 22 if I could.

Stef Schrader > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/12/2020 at 15:05

The whole gig economy feels like it pre ys on people looking for a last resort . Can’t find other work? The Ubers, Instacarts and Lyfts of the world always seem to be offering some cash, even though they’re not actually hiring you for the work you’re doing for them . I f you can’t find other options, you’re stuck accepting the turd sandwich they give you, even when it becomes turdier and turdier. That’s what I don’t like about it. It feels less like fewer drivers I get when I use it are using it to make a quick buck on the side now and more are relying on it to pay the bills . That’s scary.

Either way, letting them write their own rules seems unwise. Someone’s gotta look over their shoulder and make sure they’re not being dicks. I’m extremely here for as large of a poke in the eye as you want to muster.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Stef Schrader
10/12/2020 at 23:01

Hey Stef, I voted no. The thing that always strikes me about Uber, and for me they are the ensign of this whole industry, is that I just don’t think the people doing it understand how bad of a deal it is. You get some guy with a brand new Toyota Corolla and a CVT and he’s out driving Uber and he has no idea that when that CVT is due for its every 2,000 mi service and the special CVT fluid is $28 a quart and he needs like 60 quarts of it, he’s just got no idea what he’s got himself into. He’s destroying and depreciating his new car for what, $8 an hour? And no Bennies? I just can’t get past it from the perspective of someone who owns and maintains automobiles.

There’s a woman I see at Costco from time to time. Young Brazilian woman who’s always dressed in exercise tights and a sweatshirt and running shoes and she and her husband team up and each of them have an instacart account. He does the deliveries and she sprints around inside Costco organizing the deliveries. So they’re a team and she really turns on the hustle and I think they do okay at it. It’s pretty impressive industry, if you ask me. But most folks aren’t in it with that much motivation or cleverness.

In San Diego, where my wife’s older sister lives at crown point, they have those electric scooter plague things that are being ditched on every corner and whatnot. And the outfit that runs those scooter things hires gig drivers to run around and collect them and redeploy them. I’ve thought that that might be an interesting gig to try for a while to earn a few dollars and just have some fun at it. I’d use my 97 Safari which has proven durable for the last 150,000 mi of the 300,000 that are on it. But not to try to really make a living at it.

Stef Schrader > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/13/2020 at 10:57

Oh yeah, folks totally don’t think about how hard it is.

(Also, I friggin’ hate those scooters. A van would be better than precariously stacking them on top of a pickup in the sketchiest way possible, though. )

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Stef Schrader
10/13/2020 at 15:48

I Saw a couple in San Diego driving around in a convertible BMW 3 series from about 1995 with the top down and throwing the scooters into the back seat.

Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo > Stef Schrader
10/13/2020 at 15:49

I heard a story one time about a city that had those scooters and there was a river that went through the city and how the scooters were all winding up in the river. I laughed.

Stef Schrader > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/13/2020 at 22:40

Oh, we’ve definitely thought about strapping one to the front of a buddy’s Jeep and driving it far out of Bird’s operating area.

Stef Schrader > Rusty Vandura - www.tinyurl.com/keepoppo
10/13/2020 at 22:40

Sounds like Town Lake here. Haha.